Showing posts with label Marilyns. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Marilyns. Show all posts

Thursday, 19 June 2025

Mapping Mountains – Trimble Surveys – Carn yr Hyrddod

 

05.04.25  Lan Ddu Fawr (SN 787 699) and Carn yr Hyrddod (SN 790 704) 

Lan Ddu Fawr (SN 787 699) from the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod (SN 790 704)

Due to independent surveying and LIDAR analysis there are few important hill surveys that remain.  Lan Ddu Fawr and Carn yr Hyrddod are two of these hills.  They are placed in the open grasslands of the Elenydd, approximately 0.5km apart.  Both are topped by the remains of ancient cairns, with scattered rock at their summits.

Considering the wild surrounds of each hill, they are relatively easy to access, with the minor road leading toward the Llynnau Teifi to their south.  The paved section of this road turns to track and continues to Claerwen; one of the remotest farms in Wales.  The track continues from this farm around the northern section of the Claerwen Reservoir, before turning back to a paved road and its continuation east toward Rhayader Gwy. 

The Llynnau Teifi

Lan Ddu Fawr is given a 593m spot height on contemporary Ordnance Survey maps with a triangulation pillar perched in the remains of the ancient cairn which is now fashioned as a wind shelter.  With the flush bracket adjoined to the trig pillar recorded as 592.836m in height.  Whilst, Carn yr Hyrddod is given a 594m summit spot height, which is coloured beige on contemporary Ordnance Survey maps, this indicates an air height, the accuracy of which is not as good compared to that of the flush bracket height.

As current maps give Carn yr Hyrddod 1m higher, it is this hill that is prioritised for listing purposes.  Its classification can be viewed as important as it is listed as a Marilyn, Dewey, Dodd, a Welsh Highland P15 and a 500m Twmpau.  Confusingly the hill originally appeared in the Marilyn and Dewey listings as Waun Claerddu, which applies to land incorporating a large bog to the south-east of the summit of Lan Ddu Fawr.  To add confusion upon confusion the Marilyn list has recently changed its listed name to Lan Ddu Fawr, which applies to the lower map heighted hill and not the higher. 

Extract from the Ordnance Survey 1:25,000 Explorer map

These hills had been on our surveying radar for over a year as the higher map heighted hill is one of our named hills for our Groups within our Regions and Sub Regions.  Whilst, the lower hill is also close to Welsh Highland P15 status with LIDAR giving it 14.6m of drop.  Therefore, our plan was to survey each summit, gathering at least two - three data sets from different positions and also to survey the connecting bwlch between the hills.  The weather forecast for the day’s adventure gave clear blue skies, albeit with a brisk chilling easterly wind.

I met Aled at Dinas Mawddwy at 7.30am and proceeded to drive toward Aberystwyth and then the roads heading south before connecting with the narrow road leading to Llynnau Teifi.  We parked close to a cattle grid and fence that headed up toward our hills.  As I opened the car door, the wind hit me and I quickly changed from shorts to walking trousers.  Thankfully Aled had brought spare gloves which I needed as I had dispensed with my winter gear in favour of a thin pair that would only protect from a slight chill, and that easterly wind definitely needed extra protection as it was chilling to the bone.

From where we parked there are two options for a relatively easy route toward the first of our hills; Lan Ddu Fawr.  One is a wide shaly track rising steeply above the road; the other is a comfortably gradiented green vehicle track that headed up beyond the cattle grid and would in time follow the course of a fence.  I was in following Aled mode and he soon headed up the steep shaly section.  Beyond was open hillside and miles of it in every direction.  This is one of the appeals of the Elenydd and few places in Wales can compare. 

Heading to the hill

Our route soon joined the remains of a leet that contoured around grassed hummocks to our west.  Aled soon left me to bag a P10 sub.  He had a number of these on his planned route, which would leave me on the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod and take a circuitous route across the grass and bog toward Bryn Dafydd, before heading back to Trawsallt and continuing to Disgwylfa and eventually more sub hills before reaching the relative comfort of the paved road below.  This would leave me to survey the summits of Carn yr Hyrddod and Lan Ddu Fawr, via the connecting bwlch, surveying all necessary points on the way, before heading back on our inward route to meet Aled back at the car. 

Lan Ddu Fawr above Waun Claerddu

Aled soon bagged the P10 sub and rejoined me as the leet headed toward a forlorn looking gate.  Here we rested whilst I set the Trimble up on a gate post to attune it with satellite configuration.  From here we contoured around the upper part of Waun Claerddu before heading up the steep southerly slopes of Lan Ddu Fawr, which took us to its summit.  By now we were exposed to the wind and it whisked across the hill, so much so that unless hunkered down behind the wind shelter it proved difficult to communicate.  We spent ten minutes or so assessing the summit area and judging what points needed to be surveyed.  Having picked three candidates we headed off following a sheep track on the moor down toward the connecting bwlch. 

Leaving the summit of Lan Ddu Fawr and heading toward Carn yr Hyrddod

If not for the ten figure grid reference produced by LIDAR it would be difficult to pinpoint where the critical point of this bwlch lay, as it consists of much bog, which today was thankfully almost bone dry.  Writing this post on the 6th April follows the driest month of March ever recorded in Wales and England, and the first few days of April have been the same.  This helped us during the walk as few places were boggy and that included the bwlch we were now walking through.  Remembering the LIDAR lay-out of this bwlch, Aled pointed toward its critical point as we headed through its stunningly wild surrounds toward the steepening slopes of Carn yr Hyrddod. 

The bwlch between the two hills

As we crested the upper ridge the wind hit us again.  At least the confines of the bwlch had given some respite from its chilled extremes.  This summit consists of a relatively modern cairn and beside it the jumbled remains of the ancient cairn.  We again assessed the lay of land and pinpointed three positions to survey.  At each summit we looked for large rocks that could be deemed as being part of the natural hill.  There is plenty of rock at each summit, but none that could be described as large enough to be a part of the natural hill and therefore surveys were taken to either grass or the ground at the base of the rock. 

Aled at the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod

As we made our way to the summit a figure appeared beside the wind shelter on Lan Ddu Fawr, by the time our summit assessment was complete he had joined us.  Kevin Nicholls had driven up from Cardiff and was part of the SOTA – Summits on the air community, and planned on setting up his gear back on the summit of Lan Ddu Fawr.  He then headed back toward this summit, and soon afterward Aled was off on his wild hill bagging trek.   I watched as he headed down toward a near bog before claiming height on a ridge leading toward the summit of Bryn Dafydd. 

Aled heads off in to the wilds of the Elenydd 

This left me to my surveying activities.  I knew what needed to be done and even though the wind was proving fierce I had faced similar conditions on a few hills before.  However, with six planned surveys on the two summits I knew that the wind would hinder me more so than the Trimble, as even writing the notes in my surveying notebook proved cumbersome and especially so when the wind was blowing my camera strap and Trimble bag back over my head! 

I soon found a suitable rock to place above the first point to survey and positioned the Trimble on top of it, wedging it in place with two smaller rocks.  This proved an ideal solution to the wind and would be employed on the remaining summit surveys.  Having taken a measurement offset from the equipment’s internal antenna to the ground at its base, I waited patiently for the 0.1m accuracy level to be attained before data should be logged, and once achieved I activated it to gather data. 

Gathering data at the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod

During data collection I stood a safe distance away from the equipment so as not to hinder satellite reception, scribbled all necessary detail in my survey notebook, whose pages were flapping about in the wind.  Once five minutes of data were collected and stored I turned the equipment off, took a series of photographs and repeated the process at two further points.  Progress was being made.

Leaving the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod I headed back down to the sheltered confines of the connecting bwlch.  Using the Trimble as a hand-held device I zeroed in to the ten figure grid reference produced by LIDAR analysis.  The DTM and DSM model give the critical bwlch approximately 5 metres apart.  I favoured using the DTM model as the critical point, and this led me to a small channel amongst copious amounts of rather beautifully coloured grass tussocks. 

Gathering data at the connecting bwlch between the two hills

Wanting a rest from the buffeting wind I decided to take two data sets, both from the same position, with the Trimble placed on top of my rucksack, with its base firmly wedged in the bottom of the channel.  After the first data set was complete I re-positioned the rucksack over the same point but with the Trimble now facing a different direction and set it to gather another five minute data set, during which I sat and looked at some extraordinary purple coloured bog enjoying lichen encrusted bulbous beauty that covered the edge of a near peat hag.  This and looking up toward the summit of Carn yr Hyrddod occupied the next few minutes.  Sometimes surveying can take you to some out of the way places, that in their own right are extraordinarily peaceful and have a tranquility all their own, and this connecting bwlch was one of those places.

Once the second bwlch survey was complete I packed the equipment away and headed around any bog and joined the ridge leading to the summit of Lan Ddu Fawr.  Nearing the top I looked east toward the ridge connecting with Trawsallt and spotted a small figure heading toward its summit.  It was Aled.  He had made good progress and I thought that he’d probably get back to the car before me as I still had three data sets to gather atop Lan Ddu Fawr. 

Aled on his way to Trawsallt

When I arrived back at the wind shelter Kevin Nicholls was hunkered down with his aerials already set up and transmitting, talking to friends in various parts of the country.  I said hi and explained that I wanted to take a series of data sets and would be doing so on the far side of the wind shelter for around 25 minutes.  He indicated that he would remain where he was whilst I did my stuff. 

Kevin Nicholls hunkered own with his SOTA equipment in place

I soon had the first position set up, again using a rock to place the Trimble on and two others to wedge it in place.  Once the measurement offset was taken I retreated as it collected another data set.  Once complete I headed back around the cairn to tell Kevin that the first was now complete and two more were to be taken.

This routine of using a rock to slightly elevate the Trimble and give it a solid platform and to protect it from any wind disturbance with two wedged rocks, proved ideal and soon the second data set was complete.  Before moving the Trimble to the last position I again headed off to tell Kevin that only one remained to take. 

Carn yr Hyrddod from Lan Ddu Fawr

The third position was going to be the most difficult to get a good data set from as Aled and I had decided that one needed to be taken at the entrance to the wind shelter.  This meant that even with its slight elevation on its rock the Trimble was faced with higher rock immediately above on three sides.  This is not conducive to either attaining the 0.1m accuracy level before data should be logged, let alone attaining a good data set, we will have to wait and see what the processed data gives. 

Gathering data at the summit of Lan Ddu Fawr

As the last data set was nearing completion Kevin was packing up his gear and therefore a quick bit of wind driven conversation later and we decided to head down the hill together.  All that remained was to take a few photos of the last of the eight survey positions taken during the day, pack the equipment away, get my rucksack on and join Kevin as we headed down the hill.

Our route took us back to the gate where on the ascent I had taken a data set to attune the Trimble to the local satellite reception.  From here we opted to follow Kevin’s inward route, walking on a good quad bike track beside the fence line.  We took our time on our outward walk with lots of good conversation. 

Kevin Nicholls

By the time we arrived back at the two awaiting cars, Aled was already there, flat on his back resting in the sun.  He’d made good time on his route around the hills.  Before leaving we chatted with Kevin for quite sometime about the various hills he’d transmitted from and those he hoped to visit.  It had been an excellent day on the hill, with all plans fulfilled.  It should be an interesting survey result! 

 

Postscript: 

The processed Trimble result could not split the heghts of these hills and therefore they are now listed as a twin top in the Deweys and 500m Twmpau lists.  However, for convenience the data given below uses Carn yr Hyrddod as the prioritised hill.  Please click here for more information relating to the Dewey twin top announcement. 

 

Survey Result: 

 

Lan Ddu Fawr (significant name change for the Deweys)

Summit Height:  592.7m (converted to OSGM15) (summit relocation based on twin top for the Deweys) (summit relocation based on twin top for the 500m Twmpau)

Summit Grid Reference:  SN 78759 69974

Bwlch Height:  578.1m (converted to OSGM15, average of two surveys)

Bwlch Grid Reference:  SN 78931 70288

Drop:  14.6m

Dominance:  2.47%

 

 

Carn yr Hyrddod (significant name change for the Deweys)

Summit Height:  592.7m (converted to OSGM15, Trimble GeoXH 6000) (summit relocation based on twin top for the Deweys) (summit relocation based on twin top for the 500m Twmpau)

Summit Grid Reference:  SN 79069 70421 (Trimble GeoXH 6000)

Bwlch Height:  424.8m (LIDAR)

Bwlch Grid Reference:  SN 79547 66955 (LIDAR)

Drop:  168.0m (Trimble GeoXH 6000 summit and LIDAR bwlch)

Dominance:  28.34% (Trimble GeoXH 6000 summit and LIDAR bwlch)

 

 

For further details please consult the Trimble Survey Spreadsheet

Tuesday, 3 June 2025

Mapping Mountains – Trimble Surveys – Axe Edge

 

18.03.25 & 10.04.25  Mow Cop (SJ 858 575) and Old Man of Mow (SJ 858 575) 

The Old Man of Mow (SJ 858 575) and the trig point atop Mow Cop (SJ 858 575)

A day out with Mark with an intriguing investigation and a survey planned.  The first part of the day was spent in southern Manchester gathering information on a project that was debated when at John Kirk’s house last October.  Happy with our initial investigation the SatNav extricated us out of the confines of Manchester toward the quieter countryside and open fields of Cheshire as we headed toward its border with Staffordshire.  It was here where a pillar of rock and a trig point awaited.  However, before visiting Mow Cop we spent an hour in a pub with a late lunch and good conversation.

Mow Cop is one of those oddities in British hill listing as it has two distinct high points.  One is beside a trig point on a part of the hill that remains intact after extensive quarrying activities; this is listed as a Submarilyn by Alan Dawson.  Whilst the other is an impressive rock pillar, left in situ after those self-same quarrying activities, this is higher than the ground beside the trig point and is listed by Mark Jackson as the summit in the Humps.  The trig summit is easily attained, whilst the rock pillar requires competent climbing skill to slither up to its high point. 

The sign at the start of the walk

I’d read reports of this area but had not until today visited.  Thankfully the weather proved beautiful with unadulterated blue sky, albeit with a chilled east breeze whisking across the upper hill.  Mark had visited the trig summit before, and as he is bagging English Humps he was enthusiastic to see if any higher ground beside the castle and a private house was higher than the rock pillar.  Otherwise his English Hump completion may have to wait with one hill forever lingering out of his grasp. 

The castle from the edge of the car park

A car park close to the castle gives easy access to the various points we hoped to visit with good paths from one to another.  A path and steps led up to the castle which according to the information board was erected as a folly.  As with most follies it is a shell, but still impressive as it perches atop a rock outcrop, the high point of which looked as it was just the other side of the stepped section.  From here the top of the rock pillar could be seen and we soon dismissed the rock beside the castle as an overall high point. 

Another view of the castle

A path led down from the castle before swinging around to continue up toward the confines of the rock pillar.  A number of people were out enjoying the sunshine and extensive view.  The latter surprised me, but being on the edge of the Peak afforded a view westward across the Cheshire plain toward the sandstone escarpment of Raw Head. 

The Old Man of Mow

I hadn’t realised that access to the base of the rock pillar was so easy, imagining it to be situated in the depths of a quarry and difficult to get to from ground beside the trig point.  As we rounded a corner on the narrow path that led from an access track to a private house, there it was; an upthrust of rock towering above.  Being beside the rock pillar also gave opportunity to survey the connecting col between it and the trig summit.  I attempted this on three occasions, each time the Trimble struggled to get anywhere close to the 0.1m accuracy level before data should be logged.  However, the proximity of the rock pillar which cut off 180° of the immediate surrounds and the fact that the other half was also restricted due to the col being in the bowl of the quarry meant that the required accuracy level was not attained, therefore I closed the equipment down and headed up to join Mark beside the trig point. 

Attempting to gather data at the connecting col

We quickly assessed the area of land beside the trig and decided that a rock about 3-4 metres from its base was the high point.  After the Trimble was positioned with its internal antenna aligned to the high point of rock I headed back to the trig point and aligned its top so I looked across to what was now its flat and horizontal length toward the top of the rock pillar.  The pillar was just a little higher than the top of the trig.  This was done relatively quickly and would need an optical device to be certain.  However, it is a good indicator that the rock pillar is higher than the ground beside the trig. 

Gathering data at the summit of Mow Cop

Mark headed down to wait beside the rock pillar as the Trimble gathered data.  After the customary five minutes of data were gathered and stored I closed the equipment down, took a few photographs, and packed it away and joined Mark down in the confines of the quarried bowl.  We then followed our inward path out toward the private houses that dot the land hereabouts; one has land beside and above it that interested Mark as another potential point to rival the height of the rock pillar.  However, it was on what looked like private land and a quick visual inspection dismissed it as a candidate.  All that remained was to follow the tracks and paths back to the car.  It all proved an excellent day out with the temptation of homemade pizza waiting for the hungry walkers as they arrived back at Trengove Towers. 

 

Postscript: 

The summit of Mow Cop with the castle in the background on the left

Prior to visiting Mow Cop I had not realised how easy it was to access the trig summit from the base of the rock pillar.  I also did not realise how easy it was to sight from the trig point toward the pillar of rock and hence ascertain a measurement offset for its height in relation to the top of the trig point.  It was good to be able to gather data at the high point of land beside the trig, but a second visit would give opportunity to also ascertain an accurate height for the rock pillar.

Therefore, with the weather continuing set fine I was out relatively early scraping frost from the windows of my car before heading east to the delights of Mow Cop.  I’d come prepared with all necessary equipment to get a measurement onset for the rock pillar.  This consisted of my old wooden measuring staff, something that I rarely use nowadays, but it still does the business and especially so over the relatively short distance between the top of the trig point and the top of the rock pillar.  I knew from my previous visit that the rock pillar is a little higher than the top of the trig point as I’d aligned one with the other and with my measuring staff sighting to a maximum 5ft (1.52m) height I hoped this would be sufficient. 

Mow Cop Castle

The rather attractive houses of Mow Cop were relatively quiet when I drove through the small community and wound my way uphill to the National Park car park at the base of the castle.  I soon had my walking boots on and set off up the path to the castle to investigate the highest natural rock beside its base.  Steps lead up toward the locked interior of the castle with metal railings either side.  On my previous visit I thought rock on the right hand side of the steps to be the highest natural point beside the castle.  However, on closer inspection there is also rock on the left hand side that looked slightly higher. 

Looking out toward the rock pillar and the trig point from beside the castle

I followed the path Mark and I had taken three weeks ago that wound down steeply before continuing toward the narrow lanes and the path through the small section of moor toward the base of the rock pillar.  It felt good to be back with the opportunity to gather more data.

It’s only a short ascent from the base of the rock pillar to the trig point and again I looked at the various embedded rocks around its base and confirmed that the one Mark and I had chosen for Trimble placement was the highest.  However, I wanted to gather data from the top of the trig before gathering more data from this point. 

The equipment needed to take a height reading for the Old Man of Mow 

Before setting the Trimble up to gather data I assembled the measuring staff and sighted with the aid of a fixed spirit level toward the top of the rock pillar, using a post level for vertical alignment.  As the trig point is placed on a plinth I placed the bottom of the staff at the side of the trig on top of the plinth.  I sighted using an initial 5ft reading, this proved above the top of the rock pillar, therefore I altered the spirit level height to 4ft 6˝ and again sighted toward the top of the rock pillar.  This proved much closer with the spirit level just skimming a couple of inches below its top.  Therefore the rock pillar was approximately 4ft 8˝ higher than the base of the trig point on top of the plinth.  Placing an 18˝ ruler flat on the top of the trig point I then marked with chalk where this intersected with the measuring staff.  By doing so this gave the height different between the top of the trig and the spirit level position fixed on the staff.  The spirit level was 19.0cm (0.19m) above the top of the trig point; add a couple of inches for the height difference already sighted and this gave a measurement offset of 24cm (0.24m).  Therefore, gathering Trimble data from the top of the trig point and adding 0.24m to the result would give a fairly accurate height for the top of the rock pillar.  During this process there wasn’t a breath of breeze, which obviously helped with sighting from one place to the other. 

Almost ready to take a height reading at the top of the trig point to ascertain with a 0.24m offset the height for the Old Man of Mow

Happy with my endeavours I now sighted toward the ground at the base of the castle and the high ground above a private house that Mark and I investigated on our previous visit.  Both proved lower and therefore were dismissed as potential high points. 

The top of the Old Man of Mow

I now packed the various bits of equipment away and set the Trimble on top of the trig point to gather data.  During data collection I stood a safe distance away from the trig so as not to interfere with satellite reception.  I watched as one or two people sauntered close to the rock pillar on the earthen track that contours the base of the moor.  It was proving pleasantly warm in the early morning sunshine, but I still had a number of data sets I wanted to gather, so I did not linger.  The next two were from the same position; on top of the trig point.  This would give three data sets to compare and take an average of their heights. 

Gathering data at the top of the trig point

Once this was done I re-positioned the Trimble with its internal antenna aligned with the highest natural and embedded rock about three metres from the base of the trig point and proceeded to gather a further two data sets.  These would give comparison with the data set collected three weeks ago with Mark and again it would now give three data sets that could be compared and averaged for their height. 

Gathering data at the summit of Mow Cop

I would have been more than happy for this to be the end of my surveying activities.  However, when visiting with Mark I tried to gather data from the connecting col between the rock pillar and the trig point summit.  I failed on three occasions, probably due to the rock pillar being immediately above the Trimble and the equipment obviously did not enjoy its surrounds. 

The Old Man of Mow from Mow Cop

Since my initial visit I used LIDAR to ascertain a height and position of this col, with 1m DSM LIDAR giving two positions of equal height, approximately two metres apart.  Being here also gave opportunity to try to gather data from this connecting col again.  I decided to position the Trimble a couple of metres away from the immediate base of the rock pillar, hoping that this new position would compare favourably with the LIDAR position, it would at least give the Trimble a greater chance of achieving the 0.1m accuracy level before data should be logged. 

Gathering data at the connecting col between Mow Cop and the Old Man of Mow

It took around 15 minutes for the accuracy level to be attained and once the 0.1m mark appeared on the screen I pressed ‘Log’ and scampered off to wait for five minutes of data to be gathered and stored.  This proved a bonus survey as I had little expectation that I could gather data from this point.  Once a few photos were taken I packed the equipment away and sauntered back to my car.  The re-visit had proven a worthwhile exercise and I was back home for 1.30pm and relaxing in my back garden by 2.00pm.  It proved an excellent way to spend a morning! 

 

Survey Result: 

                  

Mow Cop

Summit Height:  335.2m (converted to OSGM15, average of three Trimble GeoXH 6000 surveys)

Summit Grid Reference:  SJ 85841 57544

Col Height:  323.7m (converted to OSGM15)

Col Grid Reference:  SJ 85828 57559

Drop:  11.5m

Dominance:  3.42%

 

 

Old Man of Mow

Summit Height:  336.5m (converted to OSGM15, average of three Trimble GeoXH 6000 surveys)

Summit Grid Reference:  SJ 85825 57560 (LIDAR)

Col Height:  193.0m (LIDAR)

Col Grid Reference:  SJ 87858 56821 (LIDAR)

Drop:  143.5m (Trimble GeoXH 6000 summit and LIDAR col)

Dominance:  42.65% (Trimble GeoXH 6000 summit and LIDAR col)

 

 

For further details please consult the Trimble Survey Spreadsheet